Ok first of all please excuse me I'm starting this thread on my blackberry so it might look like crap.

Basicislly I'm going to swap the enemic a3 for something with more power. My initial thought was to go with the k20a2 full swap because its easy and could be done quickly and it would only cost me about 2500 for the stock swap. But with some upgrades it would put me more in the 3500 to 4000 range... (rbc, cams, possibly a built head, etc. )

My other idea was to go with a k24a1 with an a2 head. This would yield me more HP and tq. However it would make my exhaust challenging and I would have some other fitment issues. Then again it totally be a monster and it could turn out to be a lot cheaper.

My basic goals for both motors are
1. All motor
2. 250+ whp
3. Reliable as hell

I was also thinking of adding a Jrsc if need be


Anyone have any suggestions or advice

I think both choices are good. The k20a2 would definitely be easier, but the k24 with the a2 head will probably be more rewarding. There's no substitution for torque. Just promise me a ride when you get it finished

what kind of exhaust challenge are you talking about? u could always take measurements to an exhaust shop and tell them what u need. its really not that bad.

- i think u should go with the k24a1 w/ a2 head if u have the resources for it. u said its a possibility to have a built head? imo, i dont think 250whp is possible WITHOUT a built head on a k20. do u know what ur going to tune with?

OFFICIAL PART OUT.LOOK:
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-2720.html

the build progress
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-1527.html

FS: 2 12" Audiobahn Alum q subwoofers
-----pm me

Probably K-pro for the tune.

DC5 Wrote:I think both choices are good. The k20a2 would definitely be easier, but the k24 with the a2 head will probably be more rewarding. There's no substitution for torque. Just promise me a ride when you get it finished

for sure lol

_interlude_ Wrote:what kind of exhaust challenge are you talking about? u could always take measurements to an exhaust shop and tell them what u need. its really not that bad.

- i think u should go with the k24a1 w/ a2 head if u have the resources for it. u said its a possibility to have a built head? imo, i dont think 250whp is possible WITHOUT a built head on a k20. do u know what ur going to tune with?

the header fitment is an issue, the height of the k24 is obviously taller so the headers have a habit of rattling around and yeah i would definately go with a kpro
the 250 mark i think is kinda high for a k20a2 its more of a reasonable goal for the k24

chiwhitesi Wrote:the 250 mark i think is kinda high for a k20a2 its more of a reasonable goal for the k24

ya thats what i was getting at. still doable with a k20 though. just alot more work involved.

- and ofcourse kpro. lol. i dont even know why i asked that.

OFFICIAL PART OUT.LOOK:
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-2720.html

the build progress
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-1527.html

FS: 2 12" Audiobahn Alum q subwoofers
-----pm me

Anyone else any suggestions for parts or something that would make up my mind on either of the engines. The floor is open to you...

what kind of cams are u planning? what are your plans for the head? i guess the questions applys to wich ever motor u decide.

OFFICIAL PART OUT.LOOK:
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-2720.html

the build progress
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-1527.html

FS: 2 12" Audiobahn Alum q subwoofers
-----pm me

since both of the motors will share the same head i was planning on going with all skunk 2 stage 2 stuff valves cams etc a mild port and polish

i was also concidering buying the KMS valve train package witch comes with a set of new Dual Racing Springs, Titanium Retainers ,Stainless Steel Racing Valves, Valve Guide seals, and a blockguard.

the stock bottom end on the k24a1/a2 is strong enough to support what im planning on doing (i think) so the head seams to be the place where i can improve the most

Yeah, you should be able to do 250 on the stock k24 bottom end no problem.

i have done a little more research and i think that 250 is a shallow goal for the k24 check it out

this is from k20a.org

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9345
Hello everyone,

Due to some very interesting developments recently, I feel the need to share this with all of you. These past few years, through the research and development of K series motors, we have all seen that the 300 whp mark is not as hard as it used to be but requires special parts working together etc… Most of the spotlight has been on the K20a motor and the 99mm stroke of the k24a block etc.. The ‘NON VTEC” k24a stock motor has not been given too much attention because of the ‘non vtec” head that utilizes one lobe cams and no variable cam timing… Basically, I am talking about the stock motors out of the US 4 cylinders Accords, CRVs, elements. These are the motors we usually dissect in order to mate the block with some k20a2 or tsx head etc…

There have been a few head porters like Brad from RLZ for example, that did flowbench the Accord head and found that in stock form ,it flows almost as good as a really well ported B series head… But that is pretty much all the info we had on these heads and motors… Well until now…

Because of my k20a.org forum , I have been lucky to have developed contacts in the Honda related industry.. Some of these people are closer than others but overall, sometimes I get to hear about projects or news that most people do not hear about.. So I cannot disclose my source, because I really value my relationship with other manufacturers and I do not wish to put that in jeopardy. So please just take it as what it is.

Project begun with a bone stock k24 accord engine which baselined at 165hp/160tq on an engine dyno.

With ecu tuning and a custom header it made 195whp .

With type-s intake manifold, type-s T-body and custom cam (to be produced at some point) it made 230whp

Then they ported the head and milled it .040 for more compression and made 250hp (at 7200rpm) and 200+ TQ . Stock pistons with shallow relief, in fact stock bottom end including the oil pump with balance shafts and stock valve springs.

So here it is… Thanks for reading!

Nikos



PS There are almost 1.5 million of these motors on American roads today.


270 285 maybe with the right parts???? what do you guys think

anythings possible with time and money, but i think 270-285 is pushing it without messing with the internals. wich might not be bad idea if ur going "balls to the wall" with the build, but i remember you saying that this is ur DD car. u might not want to sacrafice the down time.

OFFICIAL PART OUT.LOOK:
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-2720.html

the build progress
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-1527.html

FS: 2 12" Audiobahn Alum q subwoofers
-----pm me

ohh i agree the swap can be completed in about a day without tuning so maybe just a little over 250 is best

totally. ive reading up on this hybrid build lately. the next car i get (honda/ acura ofcourse) i think im gonna shoot for this swap. thers alot of possibilities to be had in N/A and boosted form. i kinda wanna see a full on n/a build and see what kinda numbers that would yeild. seeing as though 240-250 whp isnt that hard to acheive.

OFFICIAL PART OUT.LOOK:
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-2720.html

the build progress
http://www.redline9.com/forum/thread-1527.html

FS: 2 12" Audiobahn Alum q subwoofers
-----pm me

look around on k20a.com and ephatch.com there are some crazy builds there

ok so this is an update

well in case some of you didnt see i have an a2 swap

and i have been thinking about the furure of the can and i made a big ass list of stuff i want to do as far as exterior and interior however i didnt want to touch on the engine and suspension untill i did a little resarch and consulted with you guys

SUSPENSION if the toughest thing to get right on the ep3s past 2 in of drop it suspension geometry is wayyyy off so i want a set of coilovers i was thinkin

Buddy club N+, Buddy club RCA's, Ingalls front and rear camber kit, RSX-S rear sway and Beaks rear tie bar

any suggestions and post your thoughs

Another hurdle that i want to just over as soon as possible is wheels tires and brakes.


i really wanted to go with something 16x8 but its getting to be a PITA to find something reasonable so i think that 16x7 should be ok so i was thinking Rota Slipstreams Or Jmags wrapped in 215 40 16s

brakes will be interesting im looking at these

http://www.corsportusa.com/store/catalog...ts_id=5522
and these
http://www.corsportusa.com/store/catalog...cts_id=232

or

http://www.fastbrakes.com/ProductDetails...1+inch+kit

which are like 4 lug rsx brakes

tell me what you guys think i will be adding to this periodicially including my engine ideas

not a fan of your year civic but i will be looking forward to see how she turns out.

i have always loved the ep3s and it is no slouch
look at TDi North's Ep3 @1000Whp

definatly a potent platform and lightweight compared to 8th gens

no doubt they can make serious power, they are hondas. its just the body style doesnt appeal to me, but to each there own.

GL w/ it Blake...also look forward to seeing it when done!

Next year i'll probably do a brake upgrade too, but not so much as your doing. Maybe slotted/crossdrilled rotors w/ ceramic pads. I already have ss brake lines from when I first got my whip.

(09-28-2009 07:17 PM)chiwhitesi Wrote:  ok so this is an update

well in case some of you didnt see i have an a2 swap

and i have been thinking about the furure of the can and i made a big ass list of stuff i want to do as far as exterior and interior however i didnt want to touch on the engine and suspension untill i did a little resarch and consulted with you guys

SUSPENSION if the toughest thing to get right on the ep3s past 2 in of drop it suspension geometry is wayyyy off so i want a set of coilovers i was thinkin

Buddy club N+, Buddy club RCA's, Ingalls front and rear camber kit, RSX-S rear sway and Beaks rear tie bar

any suggestions and post your thoughs

Another hurdle that i want to just over as soon as possible is wheels tires and brakes.


i really wanted to go with something 16x8 but its getting to be a PITA to find something reasonable so i think that 16x7 should be ok so i was thinking Rota Slipstreams Or Jmags wrapped in 215 40 16s

brakes will be interesting im looking at these

http://www.corsportusa.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_17&products_id=5522
and these
http://www.corsportusa.com/store/catalog...cts_id=232

or

http://www.fastbrakes.com/ProductDetails...1+inch+kit

which are like 4 lug rsx brakes

tell me what you guys think i will be adding to this periodicially including my engine ideas

that is the same kit im looking at for the CRX. (same dealer too) I would use the wilwood kit before the big brake up grade. Type R calipers are cool and all, but for less money you get wilwood 4piston calipers and two piece rotors. IMO the wilwood would be your best bet.

With the K20a2 250whp is a very reliable build. 300whp starts getting shaky, and anything past that is prone to failure simply because of the near race gas level of compression. Also remember that ~250whp is much faster than any JRSC car pushing up in the 280whp range. Also, you have to keep in mind that you now know you have 3 lobes under that valve cover, out of vtec the car is pretty much like stock, then all hell breaks loose at the cross-over. Stage 2 cams is about as aggressive as you can get with a stock bottom end. Skunk2, Brian Crower are the best bang for your buck options.

Here is some info put together by a guy over on 8th Civic, more of an info thread with a list of cams known to have marked improvement. http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/bolt-ons-...input.html

You being in Chicago, then I'll agree on the coilovers. Anything more than factory set or suggested drop isn't optimal, so if you really want to reap the benefits of the coilovers then stay in that range. The curse of the EP3 is that it always looks like it's sitting high even when it's not. I think it's a combination of it being a hatch and being very squared off.

I'm looking at Wilwood brakes as an option right now, solid brake systems for a decent price. Originally I was looking at the Spoon calipers, Brembo blanks and Hawk pads but determined it was way too steep of a price for nothing more than bling effect. Yes Spoon BBKs are awesome, but it's Spoon so it will cost more than it's really worth.

The one thing I will caution you against is rotors with machined slots, dimples or cross-drilled holes. A quality set of blanks are a much better option IMO. Less likely to warp when heated and less likely to crack under DD operation. Now if the slots, dimples are cast or the holes are much smaller than normally found, then it's all good.

(09-29-2009 03:17 AM)rileyrat Wrote:  With the K20a2 250whp is a very reliable build. 300whp starts getting shaky, and anything past that is prone to failure simply because of the near race gas level of compression. Also remember that ~250whp is much faster than any JRSC car pushing up in the 280whp range. Also, you have to keep in mind that you now know you have 3 lobes under that valve cover, out of vtec the car is pretty much like stock, then all hell breaks loose at the cross-over. Stage 2 cams is about as aggressive as you can get with a stock bottom end. Skunk2, Brian Crower are the best bang for your buck options.

really why is that

Here is some info put together by a guy over on 8th Civic, more of an info thread with a list of cams known to have marked improvement. http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/bolt-ons-...input.html

You being in Chicago, then I'll agree on the coilovers. Anything more than factory set or suggested drop isn't optimal, so if you really want to reap the benefits of the coilovers then stay in that range. The curse of the EP3 is that it always looks like it's sitting high even when it's not. I think it's a combination of it being a hatch and being very squared off.

plus i would like to have some winter adjustablity

I'm looking at Wilwood brakes as an option right now, solid brake systems for a decent price. Originally I was looking at the Spoon calipers, Brembo blanks and Hawk pads but determined it was way too steep of a price for nothing more than bling effect. Yes Spoon BBKs are awesome, but it's Spoon so it will cost more than it's really worth.

The one thing I will caution you against is rotors with machined slots, dimples or cross-drilled holes. A quality set of blanks are a much better option IMO. Less likely to warp when heated and less likely to crack under DD operation. Now if the slots, dimples are cast or the holes are much smaller than normally found, then it's all good.

thanks man for the info

im just curious what your guy's opinion on the brake setup. The one from fast brakes has the OEM reliablility with a little more stopping pwr with less chance of fade when i take it to the track. The willwoods are a great setup and im sure i will love them but i have to remove the dust shield and i dont want to ruin anything durring the winter. Can you guys think of anything that i havn't already?

(09-29-2009 06:21 PM)chiwhitesi Wrote:  really why is that

Fair qustion that I wish more people would ask. A JRSC will be much closer to the performance of a NA motor than even a small turbo. Just have to remember that it is still boost, and boost is progressive with the engine's RPMs. So you will display massive gains up to, and yes some in the mid range, but nothing below 3,000RPMs. The JRSC doesn't start boosting until 3,000RPMs, this is to improve "driveability". Some agree and some don't. The bigger issue is that all boosted applications are less linear than NA applications.

On the street, where your car will live 99.9% of it's life, NA will be much more effective. The power improvement will begin from idle on, and long past the point a SC runs out of breath. You pull almost as hard for longer. Peak torque comes eariler, and you can spin higher on a NA motor than you can a turbo one. 20whp is easily covered in the situation.

Now, to voice the other side, 280whp is a mildly modded k20JRSC build on a K20A2. If you go with cams, quality header and exhaust, PnP the head and intake manifold then feed it with a short ram intake (less bogging on a boosted car) you can seriously pick up some power. With reflashes I seen some SC 8th gens reach 300whp and ~250wtq. This car would easily close any gap a similar NA built k20 could put down. It's all a trade off you know?

(09-29-2009 06:21 PM)chiwhitesi Wrote:  plus i would like to have some winter adjustablity

Exactly what I meant by being in Chicago. Lake effect snow can stop a lowered car in it's tracks. Coilovers are an easy way to help your car during these months. One of the few times I see benefits of adjustable height over standard spring, strut and camber bolts/plates drop. I just want to caution you to not drop too much as it can easily kill your performance. Unless you are going for that serious cambered look, then by all means drop down 2+ inches hehe.

(09-29-2009 06:21 PM)chiwhitesi Wrote:  thanks man for the info

im just curious what your guy's opinion on the brake setup. The one from fast brakes has the OEM reliablility with a little more stopping pwr with less chance of fade when i take it to the track. The willwoods are a great setup and im sure i will love them but i have to remove the dust shield and i dont want to ruin anything durring the winter. Can you guys think of anything that i havn't already?

I'm at work right now and can't check the brakes, I'll edit once I get back to my room.

I aslo agree that 250whp is an easy target for a K20/24 frank. ~300whp would make for a nasty street driven NA Civic. You would beast on most JRSC builds.

ok i have made up my mind 250+ whp N/A (you have convinced me lol)

k20a2

oh and as far as your suspension comment..... function over flare i suppose
My initial thought was Mugen SS that i can get for about the same price but the lact of adjustability

keep it up!

good thread!

I am a fanboi of many things, fixed suspension that is pure function is one of them. But even I have to admit that with coilovers you can drop or raise your suspension as needed. I can also appreciate the looks of monster camber on a ride, as most know it's toe that eats tires the fastest. A slammed car with massive negative camber and proper toe can have the tires last a respectable amount of time. Camber will reduce the life, but not as much as you would think. But you are right, I am a function>form guy. But I also insist that people do what they like.

As for the brake kit, if I had to take a stab at it I would say that it would vastly improve the braking and fade of your car. It also uses one off OEM parts, a plus in many people's books. It sounds like you are opposed to removing your dust plate so in your shoes I would give em a try. A nice little plus is people wondering how you got that "OEM" equipped car to stop on a dime lol.

I really like the frank build idea, but the same range is achievable on a K20 block. You could do a K20 build on stock bottom end. I'm talking full bolt on, PnP head, intake mani, cams, oversized valves and valve terrain. All while sitting over the stock bottom end, it will hold. Then, once it starts feeling slow again just pick up a K24 bottom end. Have it balanced and blueprinted and then build it for seriously high compression.

(09-29-2009 09:06 PM)rileyrat Wrote:  I am a fanboi of many things, fixed suspension that is pure function is one of them. But even I have to admit that with coilovers you can drop or raise your suspension as needed. I can also appreciate the looks of monster camber on a ride, as most know it's toe that eats tires the fastest. A slammed car with massive negative camber and proper toe can have the tires last a respectable amount of time. Camber will reduce the life, but not as much as you would think. But you are right, I am a function>form guy. But I also insist that people do what they like.

As for the brake kit, if I had to take a stab at it I would say that it would vastly improve the braking and fade of your car. It also uses one off OEM parts, a plus in many people's books. It sounds like you are opposed to removing your dust plate so in your shoes I would give em a try. A nice little plus is people wondering how you got that "OEM" equipped car to stop on a dime lol.

I really like the frank build idea, but the same range is achievable on a K20 block. You could do a K20 build on stock bottom end. I'm talking full bolt on, PnP head, intake mani, cams, oversized valves and valve terrain. All while sitting over the stock bottom end, it will hold. Then, once it starts feeling slow again just pick up a K24 bottom end. Have it balanced and blueprinted and then build it for seriously high compression.

hmm i like

i think i have to do more research on the brake kits just so i can get it right

i agree with rileyrat on the fact that function over form is the way to go, but adjustable ride height is an important tool when considering tuning your suspension. most kits come with 4 springs (duh, i know...) but only two lengths and two spring rates (fronts are the same, and backs are the same). Yes, your car will handle better, but there isnt a way to tune it. With an engine, putting butt loads of boltons on will help with performance, but proper ecu tuning is necessary to fine tune the details and get the absolute most out of a modified engine...same goes for the suspension. remember, your car has more than two wheels, so setting up a suspension for front to back is only half the job. raising and lowering each corner of the vehicle gives you the ability to "balance" your cars four points of contact.

Lets assume were talking about a car that weighs an even 2k pounds. i dont car what car it is, you will not have 500 pounds at each corner...especially with a driver in it. it will probably have a higher value on the front left corner (assuming its a left hand drive). the wieght transfers diaganly like a see saw, so the back right corner will have the least of the wieght of the four corners. this is where it gets tricky, believe it or not but raising the right rear will put more weight on that contact point, thus giving a better front to back diagonal distribution.

getting a perfect 50/50 is not the best idea BTW. because you drive a front wheel drive car, you want more of a 60/40ish. Under acceleration, inertia "pulls" wieght to the back, taking away important traction.

Getting this done is usually cheap, and many alignment shops will have the ability to do it.

as far as the brakes go...i still like the wilwoods. but thats just my own opinion.

(09-29-2009 11:48 PM)honduhboy Wrote:  i agree with rileyrat on the fact that function over form is the way to go, but adjustable ride height is an important tool when considering tuning your suspension. most kits come with 4 springs (duh, i know...) but only two lengths and two spring rates (fronts are the same, and backs are the same). Yes, your car will handle better, but there isnt a way to tune it. With an engine, putting butt loads of boltons on will help with performance, but proper ecu tuning is necessary to fine tune the details and get the absolute most out of a modified engine...same goes for the suspension. remember, your car has more than two wheels, so setting up a suspension for front to back is only half the job. raising and lowering each corner of the vehicle gives you the ability to "balance" your cars four points of contact.

Lets assume were talking about a car that weighs an even 2k pounds. i dont car what car it is, you will not have 500 pounds at each corner...especially with a driver in it. it will probably have a higher value on the front left corner (assuming its a left hand drive). the wieght transfers diaganly like a see saw, so the back right corner will have the least of the wieght of the four corners. this is where it gets tricky, believe it or not but raising the right rear will put more weight on that contact point, thus giving a better front to back diagonal distribution.

getting a perfect 50/50 is not the best idea BTW. because you drive a front wheel drive car, you want more of a 60/40ish. Under acceleration, inertia "pulls" wieght to the back, taking away important traction.

Getting this done is usually cheap, and many alignment shops will have the ability to do it.

as far as the brakes go...i still like the wilwoods. but thats just my own opinion.

i agree with you and i was thinking nearly the same thing today when i was at work... lol

yeah i think im leaning to the willwoods too but i think that im going to still contact fastbrakes to see if i can get them with blank rotors for a little more of a stealth look plus a no cracking.....

i dunno we will see it would be much easier to make up my mind if the willwoods were more expensive but they arn't